GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

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davetaylor
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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby davetaylor » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:55 pm

Of course, it's a racing cert that the first person to lodge an appeal will be Gareth himself!

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby KenOwen » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:55 pm

Just to be clear - if people are going to need to fill in the "disputed questions" section, that clearly needs to be done immediately.

So, I presume there will be an official pronouncement that "Question X" is to be referred to the panel.

For this to work, I imagine the making of such a pronouncement will be in Chris's final say, and only that. Otherwise, I can foresee disputes about what is going to be disputed!

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Chris
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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby Chris » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:39 pm

I would propose to issue clear instructions before continuing - i.e. going on to mark the next genre.

We just then need to reply on people following said instructions :|
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KenOwen
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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby KenOwen » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:22 am

Yes - but what I mean is that ONLY you should be able to decide, in your total autonomy, whether or not a question gets referred to the appeals panel in the first place.

If this is an absolute rule, then it would hopefully avoid the unedifying spectacle of someone trying to insist that it go to appeal when you (and possibly everyone else in the room) can see no merit in that particular instance.

Otherwise, it runs the risk of somebody trying to demand appeal after appeal, when they may just be mischievous, misguided..... or stupid :twisted:

In other words, there should be no automatic right of appeal.

Ken

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby johnwilson » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:05 am

Obviously this arose because of a question of mine for which the answer given was genuinely wrong, for which I hold my hands up and say mea culpa, for not double checking a reference in the A-Z.

However, I do think that when we introduce an appeals panel, which I do not oppose at all, we could be seen to be taking ourselves just a teensy bit too seriously and will leave ourselves open to nitpicking. Then we might find ourselves in the position where nobody will volunteer to set the questions for fear of them being taken apart and dissected word by word.



I agree with everything in your second paragraph John. But I don't think you should assume this has come about because of a mistake in your (very enjoyable and favourably received) set. If anything this came about because, during the marking process, I said I didn't think it was the right thing to do (even though very well-intentioned) to get iPhones out and start surfing the web to get evidence to support a challenge to a question. I believe that way leads to madness and so in response a useful suggestion has been made to formally look at things afterwards, in a structured and workable fashion.

Errors are not uncommon and, as I pointed out to one observer, maybe when we have the budget that TV companies have - when acquiring questions and getting them verified - then we might be entitled to error free sets. Until then people have to accept errors will occur. People very generously write sets, in good faith, and when mistakes are made people should respond in an appropriate way.

When I produce a set I could go to an established, independent verifier to get every question properly authenticated (itself no guarantee of perfection) but the 'going rate' would add anything between £600 to £2000 to the costs in staging each GP (depending on who I went to). So that could add a minimum of £10 a head to entry fees!

As I have already indicated, I don't think we should be looking beyond issues of fact here. I don't want to get drawn into trying to second-guess what a quizzer might've answered if a question had been worded slightly differently.

We have to remember that we quiz for fun (don't we?) and we shouldn't go down any path that will take the fun out of it or frighten people off setting. Flippin heck, it's scary enough setting for a room full of top quizzers as it is!

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby falcon » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:17 pm

I would take the opposite view to those generally expressed and only take alternative
answers if there was a consensus in the room otherwise we will be swamped with appeals
and the quiz will take even longer.When I leave I like to know where I have finished and
if this costs me an odd point every so often then so be it-swings and roundabouts.It was
well gone six o'clock before we left Rolleston and we had a long journey ahead.

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby DavidHesp60 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:23 am

I do think this is a good idea, not least because it would avoid the situation of Chris having to make decisions on the spot.I lost out on the Engels question where Salford would have been at least as valid an answer as Manchester(and would have meant that I scored 29.2 on Art and Culture :( . There is an argument that, as Salford didnt become a city until the 1920s, Manchester was the city in question..but the question,as worded allows Salford( which is where the Engels mill was located).Maybe this is exactly the sort of detail for a panel to decide

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby johnwilson » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:22 pm

I hadn't thought of Salford as an alternative answer, to be honest. I was more concerned with doing a set that would also be approachable for the Europeans doing it, and I'm not sure how many of them would have even heard of Salford.

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby DavidHesp60 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:48 pm

Yes, I can understand that, John..and I really enjoyed your quiz by the way.

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Re: GP Individual Quiz Appeals Panel?

Postby AndrewFrazer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:56 pm

I think one can make a distinction between two alternative answer scenarios.

The first is where there is an alternative answer because there is a different way of describing the same thing, or because two things fit the facts in the question. These would both be factual issues, and do not necessarily arise through ambiguity in the wording of the question.

But there could be a few cases where the wording of a question was genuinely open to two different interpretations, each leading to a valid different answer. I think genuine cases of this would be very rare. I agree you don't want to waste time with complaints that poor wording stopped people getting the right answer in cases where there isn't actually a genuine alternative answer to a reasonable alternative interpretation.

I know Chosun wasn't a particulary good example of ambiguity - I just wanted to get it off my chest. And I accept that 'is' implies that a current country was expected. But my understanding remains that 'chosun' is just a Korean word for Korea which is widely used be people throughout the peninsula. The question referred to 'described by inhabitants' (people) - saying something like 'officially known as' would have been better to limit the answer to North Korea. (The relevance of the Chosun empire was just that that was how I knew it was anything to do with Korea at all - if forced to say which half of the peninsula now uses the word in official nomenclature, I would have been guessing).

My general point on this and similar arguments about alternatives is that the benefit of the doubt - ie where there is a reasonable as opposed to far-fetched argument - should go to the answerer. On the other hand, the original expected answer should only be disallowed in clearcut cases.


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